Hindusim needs another Adi Shankara
(This post may not necessarily be in conformance with the tenets of “securalism” as preached by the “Secular parties” and the country’s intelligentsia.
In a sense, it is an irony or even a contradiction that this author believes in spirituality more than religion but yet is concerned about religious conversion and feels it has to be countered not by sloganeering but by some concrete, bloody work.
If you are put off by any of the above, please dont read any further.
This post is more a commentary on the state of affairs in the religion the author was born into and the way its being practised today and the scope for improvement. In other words, this is a post to true secularists wherever they are.)
New Life. That’s what the church is called.
Have any of you tried GST/Mount road on a Sunday Morning?? Especially the stretch between Guindy and Saidapet??
The traffic, which is almost mon-existent on a sunday will match the peak hour traffic of week days in this particular stretch. If you are lucky, you would be able to cross that stretch alone in about 20 minutes. But then, not many are lucky. Traffic comes to a standstill. The cars are parked right upto the Adyar River Bridge in Saidapet…
In about 12 years, the Church’s membership has gone from 7000 to 20,000. It’s all there in the church website.
Quite a jump, isn’t it? But i find it hard to believe that the number of Christians who live in that area and who follow that church would’ve tripled in 12 years…
We all know what’s happening.
But hey, this is not a post ranting about religious conversion. I realise that no matter how many people rant for how long, unless there is a mindset change in us, religious conversions will happen.
It happened even during the aftermath of Tsunami.
It has happened, it is happening and if nothing is done to address that, it will always happen.
By addressing, i do not mean “Forcible Anti-conversion” laws.
That is like dressing up a dead body.
It is important that people understand that shouting Anti-conversion slogans is not going to help. What is required, to my mind is something much more deeper and has to be began at the grassroots level.
The prime culprit, to my mind, is the members of the majority community like me. We, along with our religious leaders, have contributed in no small measure for all this with our apathy.
One may argue that there is always a gap between religious texts/ God’s teaching and how the people behave in other religions too. After all, there is always a gap between what we advice to others and how we behave no matter who you are and where you live.
Surely, there are caste discriminations in other religions as well. Agreed, Agreed. But still i think, there are some glaring gaps in Hinduism in the way it has failed to reach out to the masses and communicates its glorious philosophies.
First, there is hardly any link between the religious establishments and the social setup in Hindusim. For eg, we don’t even conduct marriages in a temple. We would rather conduct our weddings in AVM Rajeshwari. It’s considered uncool to conduct the weddings in temples. Only the poor do it.
The Church is there not only for prayer, but also for marriage, during childbirth for baptism, during a calamity. I’ve seen Church fathers coming 20 kilometers to conduct funeral proceedings. It’s also a community gathering and socialising every Sunday, which also happens to be a holiday in ’secular’ India.
Second, In the last 29 years of my existence, i am yet to come across a Church where those who are willing to pay more is seated next to Jesus Christ statue. The less said about our temples, the better. The more famous the temple, the more atrocious this is.
Third, We make such a hue and cry about our Archanai’s being in the native language and not in the “God’s own language” of Sanskrit. But the church father does not have any issues in conducting the service in tamil, or malayalam or any other language of the masses for that matter.
It’s sheer irony that a Bethlehem born jesus communicates to the people in their mother tongue while our own Perumals and Shiveperuman still are incorrigible Sansrit-lovers, or so it looks like or made out to be in big temples.
Fourth, the church and its fathers are past masters in adapting a local culture and spreading christianity. I was really surprised when a local church in velachery was conducting special ceremonies during “pongal” time. Only that the God was changed from Sun to Jesus.
On the other hand, i was pained to learn that a particular elite sect will not take active interest in a Mariamman kovil festival in my native place.
Fifth, Take the GST road to Chengalpet. Take any right at any junction, travel a few kilometres in that bumpy village road, you are more likely to see a church, a missionary-run primary school, and a missionary-run primary healthcare center with basic facilities.
On the contrary Hindus take special pride in having our mutts and religious heads seated conveniently inside the temples in the heart of the city so that they could perform their rituals undisturbed.
This is not to suggest that christian missionaries are always right, noble etc.. There is as much politics in a church as its in Lok Sabha.
But what we need to understand here is that does not preclude the Church from reaching out to the people. They are able to. No matter what, the church is involved with the people from their birth till death.
Religious, orthodox Hindus can give N number of reasons for the present state of affairs. And i’ve heard it all..
“Oh, there is no necessity for us to do all the service. We dont convert.”
“Oh, they receive millions from abroad”
Oh this. Oh that.
Hey, there are thousands of Hindu NRIs as well. Will they contribute to spread their religious teachings?
Even if they do who is prepare do selfless community service in the remote Nilgiris or tribal areas??
There is a lot to learn from Christianity especially in areas like bringing religion closer to the masses in an organised way wherever they are. And in channelising the flow of funds to propogate their religion.
I’ve heard enough people rant about how Hindusim is not a religion but a way of life, blah blah.
I agree that the core principles of Hinduism is timeless and will always remain so. The teachings will remain intact but sooner or later, the label will change from Hindusim to Christianity. Like the way Sun God gave way to Jesus Christ for Pongal.
And trust me, the likes of Shiv Sena are doing their best to antagonize people away from Hinduism.
Lets not get too emotional. And sorry for such a stupid anology for lack of a better one my mind can conjure now. Till recently DoT(not even BSNL) was the only recourse to people for telephone connectivity. Now, people have options.
Unless Hindusim reinvents itself and adapts to the changing times like BSNL is attempting to, it would soon be extinct. If one could not care less, that’s fine. But one does, then one needs to do something about it.
In short, Hindusim needs one Adi Shankara and very badly at that.
July 4th, 2006 at 3:41 am
Very nice post. Sankara philosophy made a lot of people stay as Hindus and have more insight into the advaita philosophy and as such into the science behind vedas.. It was most needed and there when Buddhism was coming of greater influence towards the south and many of slokas of baja govindham were directed to many people who were so called monks..(to criticize people who adapted to buddhism). As long as people believe in peace and good let they choose any path to get there. But sincerely we need to change certain things about our religion (that were not there to start with). Ippo poi Meera Jasmine Kovil kullai porathuku Dosha poojai panindu irundha..hindusku kooda kovilku porathukkku erichal varathu..We need to make temples as cultural centres and community centers like churches and reduce the gossip commotion and commercialization.
Even Max muller and lot of europeans learnt and even today many learn sanskrit to dig in understand and also criticize our scriptures….Namba kooda niraiya padikanum therinjikanum. Nallathai eduthukanum.
July 4th, 2006 at 7:43 am
simple aa solanum naa..
the whole post is
100000 la 1246 vaarthaigal…
(100 la 1 vaarthai ku proportionate )
July 4th, 2006 at 7:57 am
A very good one. I and one of my Christian friend used to have similar conversations… a post to think about and act!
July 4th, 2006 at 9:14 am
Although I understand your point of view, it ignores some basic facts.
1. Christianity is an evangelical religion from the ground up. Their main goal is to “convert” the non-believers, spread the message and so forth. It is carefully planned and executed under supervision of foreign agencies such as Southern Baptist church of USA, and Germany.
2. Tamilnadu is easily the most active state where Christianity is growing by leaps and bounds. This is due to the constant denigration and humiliation of the hindu religion.
3. Much is made of Tamil archanais and so forth. What is forgotten is that most priests are *equally* competent in Tamil and they do Tamil archanais. If you asking for banning Sanskrit texts in temples, that would be in line with political parties and I dont think it is good.
4. Hinduism’s home is here in India, so there must be more tradition associated with it. Will you ask the Vatican to give up Latin and conduct services in Italian/German ?
5. Most importantly, Christianity in TN cannot be what it is today without unchecked funds from abroad. The government does not interfere in any churches unlike the HR&CE.
6. About VIP treatment, it is also a result of the HR&CE interference. Local politicos are appointed as HR&CE temple officials, these politicos demand these types of special treatment. Temple priests are treated like crap without even basic respect for them in the presence of VIPs.
7. As far as casteism goes, I am all for providing access to all communities to learn ancient texts. Therein lies the answer, not in burning our ancient texts and culture. Because you know what, when things go bad, Catholics can always go to Vatican and be proud that latin is being used there, but Hindus would have lost sanskrit for ever.
July 4th, 2006 at 9:15 am
Prabu,
I didn’t want to clutter ur blog with my lengthy thoughts. So I made a post of my own. Appreciate ur thoughts
http://mufasasden.blogspot.com/2006/07/my-ramblings-about-hinduism.html
July 4th, 2006 at 9:20 am
priyums,
andha meera jasmin controversy was definitely one of the things that made me think on this…
srikanth,
seringa anna!!:)
gopi,
danks da
July 4th, 2006 at 9:27 am
anon,
Hey, the idea is not to ban sanskrit or whatever.I am not a political guy.
But whatever great philosophies and teachings we have should reach the masses. How do u do that in the present day scenario?
Regarding VIP treatments, its all easy to put the blame on some HRCE guys. But we should also remember its a collective responsibility. Those bigwigs who demand special treatments are also Hindus, right?
if converting the non-believer is the main agenda of christianity,
should not reaching out to the masses to teach whatever be the Hindu priority??
the crux is that we have enough things and reasons to complain but we are not thinking abt ways and means to work around our challenges..
July 4th, 2006 at 9:29 am
karthik,
thanks for your link. i will comment in yr post
July 4th, 2006 at 9:49 am
PK, going thru’ the foreword I thought your post would be on bashing conversion. Instead of blindly opposing conversion, you have beautifully pointed out the reasons. Great Post! Adding to that - Hinduism is a way of life (vaazhkai vazhi murai). Therefore, you cannot convert yourself into a Hindu as in Christianity or Islam but you can live as a Hindu. Hinduism has deep rooted tradition and culture and its many practices are inter-twined with nature. But in due course, people started over-doing things (esp stuff like customs which went on to become superstitious beliefs and casteism - where people, instead of protecting the downtrodded starting showing apartheid). So we only are to blame for this not the religion itself!
July 4th, 2006 at 11:03 am
Nice post.As for me, religion is just another way to build a sense of belonging and I call my God by any name I want to.
What irks me is the hype that the converts cause more than the natives.Feel like asking “How well do you know your religion to get converted to another?”
July 4th, 2006 at 11:13 am
Perhaps I misunderstood you.
One of your arguments is that Hindus must involve in major social projects and *clearly identify themselves as hindus* in these projects. I could not agree more.
Another point is that, Hindus must open another channel that is easier to comprehend for the masses. I could not agree more on that too. What do you suggest ?
I have been to a couple of mega Christian meetings just for curiosity. Believe it or not, a vast majority of the time they spend talking about miracles. Person X had this disease, it got cured. Person Y had no job, he got one. There are always a couple of foreigners who talk the most and then translated locally with equal gusto. They do however have the cash power to provide something concrete for these masses - in return for conversion. Whether it is free school seats, college seats, jobs in churches or other social organizations, pensions, whatever. Without concrete and tangible benefits very few would convert just for spiritual reasons.
The first thing that must happen is to overcome age old suspicions between castes and communities. Remove the humiliation and stigma of poverty associated with priests and holy men (of all communities). Whether it is a village poojari or a srirangam poojari, give them enough pay and facilities so they can lead a honorable life. Keep the HRCE department out of day to day activities of the temples (big or small). Whether it is the othuvars, temple vidwans, nadaswaram artistes, or gurukals, they cannot have the HRCE appointed politicians dictate terms to them. Allow temples to keep enough of their collections, so that they can do away with the special darshan tickets, tickets for footwear, free parking.
Yes, we need collective action instead of cribbing. The only problem is that collective action can only go so far in the presence of structural defects.
Ok, I will stop now. I apologize if my tone in the previous post was a little less-than-sweet.
July 4th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
unless there is a mindset change in us, religious conversions will happen.
Do you want, or do not want, the mindset change?
Unless Hindusim reinvents itself and adapts to the changing times like BSNL is attempting to, it would soon be extinct.
Whoa, what a sweeping statement!
July 4th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
it is not true that hinduism doesnt have a missiong for example in germany
Nina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Hagen) fore example actively promote hinduism an even release a complete album “Om Namah Shivay” containing only mantras. Together with her daughter Cosma Shiva Hagen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosma_Shiva_Hagen) you can see her quite frequently around in german talk shows. Probably the promotion of hinduism is not done as agressively as christian missionaries do in india. In general your article is imho too overcritical and even turns positive aspects (like use of sanskrit) in negative ones.
July 4th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
as always, wonderful post!
but the thing about hinduism, we learn to coexist, we do not say that ours is the only way…or our gods are the only gods..
hinduism doesnt preach that other gods dont exist…and that is why i love it so much!
and as far as the tickets go, how else do teh priests make money??
they need to make a living too, right?
July 4th, 2006 at 10:33 pm
Thought-provoking post. one of the facts tht forces people to convert is our caste based society n its rigidity… its still a fact tht people are not treated equally even before the eyes of god. There are villages(real ones not the type they show in films– these have atleast 2 well-educated persons from a single household)where there are two temples: 1 for the upper castes and 1 for lower ones. Some villages hav only one temple(built by upper castes-obviously) where the lower castes are not allowed inside(yes..yes in TN)
The biggest problem with hinduism or for tht matter any religion is wrongfull(lets say sinful) interpretation of customs. This has just been tattered beyond recognition by the powerful(== corrupt) castes.
Any self-respecting person will not accept the fact tht god has created him as an out-cast to serve the superior castes. So what does he do? He starts disliking the god-concept of the upper castes.He goes in search of solace and equality.He gets it in another religion with a new concept of god. So he changes his god which for once atleast welcomes him into its premises. ( or starts disliking the god concept itself) He definetly gets solace but equality…no. Dont agree with me??We still have christian nadars or christian (somethings).. agreed??
If god created everything….. then why does’nt he like a human to enter his temple??(tht too…such a lovely creature)after all he created her too….(logic idikuthu?)
our community temples (kula theivams in other places as well as those in our villages) dont have brahmin preists.Puja is performed by a particular caste person. We dont have sanskrit verses, but just some tamil songs(correct-aana peru theriyalai…).
This obsession with sanskrit is just too much… Each person has the right to pray to god as per his wish and in a language of his choice. This cannot be enforced with any law. Another classic ex of mixing politics into religion.
And these type of miracles-concept god is being used by hindu saints(so-called) too. U dont hav to study hard to pass….just pray to god on fridays. Dont take medicines….. god will take care of u. And these saints(s-c) have many well-qualified n well-educated persons as followers…can u beleive it!!!
We cant blame chistianity for converting bcoz, if our religion had been much more understanding and approachable there will not be any need for conversion.
I agree with risha tht ppl dont really understand our religion b’fore choosing another..but where do u find the real hindu religion??in books written in sanskrit??which the layman cant understand??just as i mentioned earlier….its just in tatters tht no one bothered to mend.noo no one bothered to collect the peices.
so instead of blaming others we need to hav a clear notion abt religion. There is no wrong in telling the masses abt it……but it should not be in the form of miracles. Religion should be synonymous with self-discipline not miracle and it should not be forced down one’s throat. And our age-old prejudices need to be forgotten. There should be respect for others who dont beleive in this concept.
BTW prabu karthik, a good way to increase the comment-count(just joking). ur observation abt shiv sena is just perfect.
P.S:And wat did the ppl in village do??they went to a church(in a remote part of TN-this was beyond the imagination of anyone even before one yr)which made them feel as humans. Never mind tht they were asked to cry and kneel.(asked a person abt it :”vithiyaasama irunthutunga…. mukaadu pootu mutti poda sonnanga”)
atleast they were doing it inside a roof and were able to see the diety!!
evangaly-ellam eppadi thirutharathu???10 periyaar??noooo 10000000 periyyar vantha kooda thirutha mudiyaathu..
on a serious note….. things will change. after all, its “we” who comprise the society.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:23 am
Good post PK. I won’t comment on your points much since some of the readers would see it in a way because am a Christian and because of my profile image. You know that.
But I would like to mention a few things here on the Anonym comment.
First of all, me or any of the Catholics I know (except the priests) do not know Latin or Italian or any other foreign language. I have heard only Malayalam mass in our church (and its the same in all the Catholic churches across Kerala, I believe). If there is a pilgrim place, like Velankanni church or the St: Francis Xaviers church in Goa etc, there would be mass in several languages including English. But even there, Latin is most unlikely to be heard.
As for the funds flowing in, there was a report in India Today Malayalam edition sometimes back stating that the first place in recieving foreign funds go to Matha Amruthanandamayi Mutt. The Christian organizations come second.
As for the conversion, it is true that some of protestant churches do that by offering help or money. But not all the Christian churches do so. (Ofcourse they would be happy in adding someone new to the church though)
I heard that it is easy to start a protestant church sector. All you have to do is find a benefactor first and send him/her a pic of members of your church. If you can add more members, you will get more money. And believe me, most of the Catholics here are also fedup with their “you haven’t really known Christ yet” kinda thing. But its not always the money. If it was so, what about the conversions to Budhism like Ambedkar did? Wasn’t it based on the caste-system?
I don’t know if one can convert himself/herself as a Hindu, but I have seen converting oneself to Brahmin. A famous Ayurvedic doctor (A Namboothiri) married a movie actress (low-caste) and had her converted to be a Namboothiri with all the ceremonies like “pooNu noolidal”. This happened a few years back.
Other than this, everyone has the right to convert themselves to any other religion. When writer Madhavikutty (Kamala Das, now known as Kamala Suraiya) converted to Islam, there was a big deal about it in Kerala and the famous Malayalam poet Balachandran Chullikad converted himself to Buddhism just to prove his own right to do so.
I wish people start to spread love like Jesus said : “Love one-another”, instead of spreading religion which at the end causes hatred. Whatever religion we believe in, being good at our deeds is the main thing that can bring happiness and meaning to your life.
July 5th, 2006 at 7:20 am
Prabu Karthik
Excellent post. There is a lot of social service in Hinduism. I refer here to the Ramakrishna Mission, the Vanavasi Kalyan Ashram, Art of Living, the Arya Samaj, even the Sai movement etc. The problem is that Hindu social service organizations, like temples, are not insulated from Government interference since they are majority community institutions. Christian missionary organizations by contrast are insulated since they are minority community institutions in secular India.
I agree with your prime take - that Hinduism needs to reach out to the masses. The temple festivals offer one opportunity provided they are combined with health clinics, educational workshops etc. The Shankaracharya, what ever his faults, understood this in his outreach to the Dalits. It is time that the Madurai Adheenam, Tirupati, Srirangam and Guruvayoor do likewise.
The temple moreover should offer vocational training, after hours schooling etc to ensure that it becomes the socio-economic center it used to be in pre-colonial times. It is not merely a place of worship. It should be the center of the community as it once was.
Hindus were 85% of India according to the 1951 census. This declined to 83.5% in the 1961 census. The percentage dropped further to 82.7% in 1971. It declined to 80.5% in the 2001 census. The secular incentive structure is directed against Hinduism and would need to be rectified.
(However, let us not forget that the proportion of practicing Christians is very low in Europe. That religion is facing a crisis of adherance there).
Hinduism needs to reestablish its roots amongst the agrarian castes, in rural India, in tribal areas and in under served urban settlements. It can do so by making it relevant to the lives of ordinary men and women there. The rest would sort itself out.
Best regards
July 5th, 2006 at 7:56 am
RAVI,
thanks:)
the idea is not to slander the religion…
but the religion is seen by the way of the people..right?
religion does not act on its own.. ofcourse we are at fault but the religion will bear the brunt of the consequences of our fault.
July 5th, 2006 at 7:58 am
Risha,
>>What irks me is the hype that the converts cause more than the natives
i guess its more bcos of insecurity
>>Feel like asking “How well do you know your religion to get converted to another?”
maybe u shud ask next time:)
July 5th, 2006 at 8:03 am
anon,
regarding yr take on these “arputha sugamaklikkum kootam types” i completely agree with u. its more on miracles and so on and so forth and less abt spirituality,way of life etc…
But i’ve always wondered what makes these people stick to that religion even when they realise they’ve been taken for a ride??
i guess its bcos of the way the church and other established is intertwined with lives of the ppl there..
i agree with yr other points…
the idea is not to bash HINDUISM.. but as a person who has been born into that its time we also learn the good things from other religions in the way they organise and function…
July 5th, 2006 at 8:07 am
zero,
thanks for quoting my own statements to me ;p
anon2,
i dont gain anything by criticising hinduism blindly…
thanks for the wiki link..
if they are happening good. i dont deny the work done by Ramkrishna Mission and the likes.. only that i expect a lot more…
sanskrit is to my mind a language. i dont know it.. most of the hindus dont know either..
so tell me which is easy??
Almost all of the hindus learning sanskrit or converting the sanskrit texts and verses to regional languages so that ppl can understand??
July 5th, 2006 at 8:12 am
monu,
i agree to yr first point. we dont say ours is the only way.. true!!
and regarding yr second point,
we’ve made temple priests like that.
they get paltry sums like 20 rupees and 30 rupees officially?? how on earth can he survive iwth it and his family??
what is the security for him or his family?
forget the governments in our country.. they r after all “secular”
what have all the Hindus done to adress the priest’s plight??
again this is a highly uneven terrain..
i know purohits who make a killing (conduucting 3 weddings on the same day) its like any other bsiness in that sense..
do u know that there r ppl prepare to pay bribes in lakhs to bcome archakars in “lucrative” temples??
my point is we make a fuss abt trivial things but dont care abt addressing some fundamental issues in our temples administration…
July 5th, 2006 at 8:22 am
laila,
i agree to most of yr points..
there r other categories and discrimination in christianity as well… but whats worse here is we dont care abt others even in the least possible way…
10 days back i went to a temple…
i was with my mom.. the archagar who was attending me asking my name etc got the archanai ticket from me..
then another person came with marks making his community obvious..
the archakars attention immediately went to that person asking for “gothram” etc to him. it does not matter that i was there bfore that person came. he got preferential treatment in terms of archanais distrubution of vibhuthi prasadham…
ipdi irukku pozhappu…
if this is the way they treat me, i can only imagine the kind of treatment people from rural background would get there…
look at this meera jasmin issue for eg. i cant stand this “prasnam” funda!!
instead of blaming others we need to set our house in order and learn from others and adapt and evolve..
July 5th, 2006 at 8:24 am
jo,
>>Whatever religion we believe in, being good at our deeds is the main thing that can bring happiness and meaning to your life.
Absolutely!!!
July 5th, 2006 at 8:28 am
jaffna,
i totally agree that ramakrishna mission, art of living etc r doing good work!
but more is reqd is my point…
>>
Hinduism needs to reestablish its roots amongst the agrarian castes, in rural India, in tribal areas and in under served urban settlements.
It can do so by making it relevant to the lives of ordinary men and women there. The rest would sort itself out.
you’ve summed up beautifully!!
we dont need bajrang dal types..
we need religious workers and intellectualls who can understand and coney the philosophies to the masses in the way they can relate and understand !!!
July 5th, 2006 at 10:13 am
Prabu, an interesting post. A few points:
I do hope you do not confuse evangelical churches like New Life with other well establishes churches in India like the Syrian Christian church or the Indian Catholic church, which are generally speaking, extremely careful not to aggressively push for conversions and have a more organic presence in the country.
The evangelicals, on the other hand, are not even very strongly involved in voluntary work in India (unlike organizations like CASA and ISI, which are run by Indian methodists and Jesuits), and use fairly aggressive and offensive methods to convert.
They are viewed with great suspicion in countries with Christian Orthodox churches, like Russia, Armenia and Romania where their activities are strictly regulated. They are so desperate to convert that they’d convert even those who’ve been Christians for thousands of years!
I’ve often wondered how they’ve managed to get a foothold in Tamil Nadu. Perhaps because there weren’t very strong indigenous Indian churches in Tamil Nadu in the first place, unlike say in Kerala or Goa?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:22 am
thalassa_mikra,
yep, this post isnot in support of those evangelical churches but i think hindusim needs to do some self-introspection and try to prevent such conversions!!
I being a outsider may not have enough knowledge on the methods and functionings of such churches.. it would be great if some one is willing to write on the same!!
July 6th, 2006 at 12:00 am
prabhu karthik,
it is very easy to destroy hinduism. we have so many caste biases going on. take anti-brahminism for instance. brahmins are usually priests in many temples. if christians want a piece of hindu population they need to undermine our gods. they cant obviously do that. so they undermine brahmins and through them the hindu gods. while people develop distrust in brahmins they also develop distrust in the gods. its the christian/muslim cool way of divide and rule.
many idiots are blind to this fact. they join the christians in bashing brahmins not realising that they are getting screwed from behind. And then they regret, like what you are doing now, that hinduism is getting extinct. why wont it? if a neighbor comes and complains about your own brother, even if your brother is at fault, you should only scold him in private. you cannot join the neighbor in bashing your brother. in the end your family will loose.
agreed there are some flaws in the priestly class. your focus should have been on cleaning that up and ensuring unity within hindus. at least to the outside world you should appear as one family unit. but you dont do it that way. instead you join the brahmin bashing alsong with christians and muslims and slowly send hinduism down the drain.
if i was a christian converter, i would be foolish not misuse your ignorance.
btw: there thousands of tamil books available in our religion. alwars and nayanmars have exclusively sung in tamil. did u make an attempt to know all this
-
July 6th, 2006 at 12:59 am
nattamai,
i dont equate hindusim with brahmins alone. And i dont have any need to bash one community…
if u feel this post is all abt brahmin bashing then i cant do much abt that…
i dont agree to this private public funda.. as far as i am concerned, if i find something not so great abt my religion its better we acknowledge it, discuss it in the open and try to correct it…
hiding something will not take us anywhere… lets acknowledge something needs to be doneand move fwd…
every religion has its own share of idiosyncracies.just that i thought i’ll highlight the religion i’m born into…
i dont find anything wrong in learning some effective things from other religions as we evolve…
azhwars and nayanmaars… hey i listened to thiruvasagam.. and i did not understand a word in it until one blogger came out with the meaning in contemporary tamil…
i’ll be honest… i’ve not tried azhwars and nayanmars…will do that.
just bcos i criticise by brother does not mean he is not my brother anymore…
July 6th, 2006 at 2:05 am
i didn’t think *you* were a acste basher. but i am telling what is happening to a majority of non-brahmin hindus. face it they constitute majority of hindus and if they are distorted hinduism is gone forever.
hinduism has received several threats before by forign agencies. also, several ‘localization’ attempts have been made in the 10 century also. for example ramanuja was an early social reformer. he brought out into the open, which was practised by a chosen few and included non-brahmins, especially dalits into god-service in a big way. but who speaks about him nowadays.
most of the azhwars weren’t brahmins. some nayanmars arent brahmins. they were precisely there to enable non-priestly class to get into hinduism. they wanted the masses to follow the vedas. but who talks about them? who follows them? they are all clubbed as a ‘brahmin creation’ - and ignored. dalits dont even know the value of ramanuja, who was also the first person to allow women access to temples and rituals.
we think hinduism is not contemporary or as socially out-reaching as chritianity. but in truth we are not aware of the +ves in our own religion.
again i agree there have been some classes, especially brahmins, who have misused the respect and regard the other casts have given them. but a few bad apples does not mean that the entire community is to be faulted. hinduism should work on getting them to do what they were originally supposed to do. even if you dont equate brahmins with hinduism, face the truth, they are the ones who hold vedic knowledge (or the tamil vedic knowledge). the others havent kept in touch with the. have you read the vedas or their tamil transalation. have you read thiruvaimozhi, thiruvasagam, thirupaavai(which was written by a cowherd). either you should encourage non-brahmins to learn this knowledge and follow it with sincerity or encourage brahmins to stop being casteist and do their duty - which is upholding these religion.
doing neither and just doing internal squabbling will only aid christians and muslims. hinduism, as you rightly noted, will die because of lack of internal unity than because of external forces.
show a united front. learn that when they critisize specific castes they are only indirectly poking fun of your god. dont get misled by casteist prejudices and fall into the trap.
July 6th, 2006 at 2:11 am
When the person heading Sankara Mutt cannot partake the food cooked by someone not belonging to his caste, who says Hinduism needs enemies?
July 6th, 2006 at 2:21 am
Very nicely said. I’ve thought about a lot of your points in passing over the years. It’s nice to read them all in one place.
Great post!
July 6th, 2006 at 2:22 am
And besides, Hinduism has ALWAYS been hijacked by a coterie which claims to “protect” it but actually fools one billion and successfully serves the selfish interests of a select few.
Around 1500 Hindu temples have been destroyed by the Sinhala Buddhist chauvinists down south in the last 50 years. Why is demolition of Kashmir temples such a big issue but demolition of Jaffna temples a non-issue?
There are too few Buddhists in India to make it into a Hindu-Buddhist issue and make political capital out of it. Whereas using Kashmir to create a Hindu-Muslim schism is a political masterstroke that pays rich dividends.
Finally, the BJP would not have maintained such a deafeaning silence if the Kanchi Acharya had been arrested in UP. Protesting in TN would have meant their political demise in Tamil Nadu. Goes to show they are first a political party and religious interests are subject to their political future.
July 6th, 2006 at 8:28 am
nattamai…
>> he brought out into the open, which was practised by a chosen few and included non-brahmins, especially dalits into god-service in a big way. but who speaks about him nowadays.
that’s precisely my point.
there are a yawning gap in the principles in various literatures and how its practices in present day scenario…
so who do u think is responsible?
the illiterates or those who r at the helm in regarding what’s right and what’s not in our religion?
even when bringing alwars to the present day tamilians i think people like writer sujatha did more than any of the religious vaishnava experts that i know…
atleast he wrote “azhwargal oru eliya arimugam”…i came to know abt alwars only becos of that..
the other manapaadam’s i did in schools to fetch marks did not help one bit…
ideally i wud’ve expected people who and their establishments who have been in the religious works to take that to the masses…
in the case of tiruvasagam( lets not get into if its a great effort by ilayaraja or not) it made people like me to think abt thiruvasagam atleast. and that project is again done in colloboration with some christian missionary /priests group.
i guess even veeramaamuni was a christian…
July 6th, 2006 at 8:32 am
ttm,
that was one nice example that u quoted abt…
i have one page in rajaji’s mahabharatha which states exactly what they mean by ‘kulam’..
Does it mean our religious heads have not read that particular version or does it mean it does not suit them to practice all of what is written?
swapna,
thank u:)
July 6th, 2006 at 8:33 am
ttm,
indha buddhist angle enakku strike agave illai! very good one again!!
July 6th, 2006 at 10:25 am
To the talkative man -
The head of the Kanchi mutt will not eat food cooked by any brahmin. The person who cooks the food must follow certain rules and traditions. I agree some of it is anachronistic, and probably could have been solved by teaching people of other communities the rituals required before cooking, the ingredients that are prohibited, the various things like clean and unclean vessels, and so forth. Understand the background behind traditions, you cant brush everything aside in the name of rationalism.
It will take time, but he is the most modern of all the hindu mutt heads.
Dont parrot what you read in the media. He was the first and only religious head to enter slums and closelt interact with Dalits in Dharavi. In fact he spent many days there, the suprising thing is Tamils who dominate this slum do not hate him there. Maybe they have stayed too long out of the state.
Even if you dont like the person.
Please respect the work that is being done by the organization. There is only so far any organization can go in the face of a hostile government. A case in point is the rejection of permission to open the medical college and hospital in chennai. Yes, a top of the line hospital with latest equipments and most modern facilities is fully constructed and ready in chennai.
Hopefully students and patients can avail of this hospital when it is sold to Chettinad Trust.
For a summary of activities, if interested go to:
http://www.kanchiforum.org/interesting/kanchimuttactivities.htm
July 7th, 2006 at 11:48 am
This post has been removed by the author.
July 7th, 2006 at 11:52 am
PK,
But I appreciate and welcome your approach and message - that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Your call for Hindu homogeneity is valid although the goal will always remain fluffy and out of reach.
Must mention that Hinduism is too vast and terribly non-homogeneous to “suggest” improvements or even make a proper study of. Let me add that realistically, we were a humongously disorganized landmass of 563 confused states with no binding identity fifty years back. If you actually go and live in northern states like MP you will find the Hindu population overwhelmingly large(over 90%) compared to TN, so much so you might feel that Hinduism has no threats
The fact that the doctrines of Hinduism have always remained out of bounds for the common man has brought the religion to a perennial state of evolution. Still I dont see any threat from outside religions - their core values are terribly foreign and alien for a native(no matter how westernized and de-culturized) to embrace. There will always be hybrid colors of Hinduism in place. Hence no surprise that while today’s rich and educated Hindu seeker wont stand in a sweaty queue or climb hills barefoot, he is more attracted to the concept of singing bhajans in an AC hall complete with latest electronic gadgets. No wonder that today, this is such a fertile ground for the likes of Bambara Thalaiyan, Amway-style Marketing whiz Sri^2 Ravishankar, Amritananda Mayi [let me add that Ammachi is the only guru today whose name is absolutely untainted with scandal, in an era where godman is defined as ‘guy with no crime left to commit’…long live Women’s Lib :-)]. The age-old hierarchical models dictacted by caste has crumbled, as shown by the influence commanded by non-brahmin gurus like Bangaru Adigalaar/Ammachi/Bambara Thalaiyan. Hinduism for the middle class is a lot like private tuitions - necessary, popular and expensive.(Our man Sri^2 charges like 3000 bucks a week!) A distant cry from the Hinduism of a Vivekananda or Gandhi.
Abt the churches, not true every one of them is funded by abroad. Bear in mind that the American is a pucca capitalist who wont invest $$$ where there are no returns
A number of them live out of the subscriptions of members [unlike the Hindu, the Christian goes to church 4 times a month, pays his monthly subscription to cover services received(like confirmation/burial space), donates 10% of his monthly income]. Given the rush for convent admissions, who needs $$? The entire system is well prepared for funding from within. Besides, their own Catholic-Protestant politics is more complicated than our caste system.
Of course it must be mentioned that TN’s strength in the English language is singularly due to the 1000+ convent schools, in north india, they will stare at you in the streets if you use English!
Anonymous,
I visited the other parts in the site. It is obvious within 2 minutes reading the sanctimonious servitude and sycophant tone of the posts that the forum is one for the brahmins, by the brahmins and of the brahmins(realistically Mutt devotees). There seems to be vitriolic angst against Tambras, ISKCON, some Vaishnava temples, even poor Visu and SV Shekhar for not standing by Kanchi Mutt whereas a completely-lost-his-marbles hot-air maverick Subramaniam Swamy receives platitudes left, right and center! Another Shiv Sena in the making?
July 7th, 2006 at 9:44 pm
TTM,
>>for the brahmins, by the brahmins and of the brahmins
add to that with an asterix with an explanation which this definition comes from birth! and totally contradicting many of the religious texts which stays it shud be by behaviour!
regarding yr other statements as to Hindusim being too vast, i agree!
But the actual practices maybe different across regions but the vast gap between what is being in our books and what is being followed is still the same everywhere! And that happens when nobody is knows what is happening..
Madhya Pradesh?? I have no idea..
But i have to say that any ‘way of living’ which carried too much of contradictions and which does not lend itself to revisions and reforms is just putting itself in the burner!!
I am not saying Hindusim has some threats in the next 100 yrs or whatever…
but over a few centuries and if nothing is done to address certain issues.. well!!
Hindusim might need some reformer to weed out some inconsistencies and set things in order!!
July 7th, 2006 at 10:52 pm
To the Talkative man-
>>for the brahmins, by the brahmins and of the brahmins >>
I asked you to visit the activities page and you wander all over the website. Bad boy !
Are you saying the mutts activities are *for brahmins only* ? Tell that to the thousands of poor people of all castes who are treated at Sankara Netralaya or Hindu Mission or Childs trust.
Gawd ! Hate comes easy for us doesnt it ? Why dont you tell me your caste and I will tell you 10 things that suck about it ?
Amazing how even people you think are moderate have such feelings of hatred!
Good luck everyone and happy hating.
July 8th, 2006 at 3:28 am
anonymous dude, sorry man, If you had told me earlier I would have steered clear of the rest of the shit!
[Even DMK website will have a page of good deeds. Therefore, ignore the rest and call DMK the next best thing since sliced bread]
July 8th, 2006 at 6:40 am
PK
Very good post.. The bottom line is hindus must ‘clean up their act’.. kind of ‘Inside Out’ approach.. rather than blaming external factors.. and there will be several all the time..
I am coming in to this rather late.. there have been several good comments.. My take:
- Hindus have been around for a while and to say that ‘they will become extinct’.. is too sweeping
- I see the discussion denigrating to one particular caste, which is unfortunate. Your post is about 1 billion Hindus and not about few million Brahmins.
July 8th, 2006 at 6:47 am
ram,
thanks!
extinct…. well i think i’ve rubbed a few the wrong way with that statement..
its not going to be extinct tomorrow but its high time we rectify our anomalies and go forward..
and as i have indicated in my post, some of the timeless philosophies of hinduism will prevail but the label under which its disseminated to the masses will be different!
And clearly post this is not about a particular caste…
September 19th, 2006 at 6:21 am
I read all these threads.
Well, I have one thing to say.Today, aged 29 years, I was unfortunate to cremate my younger brother when he died at a young age of 16 and this year my son all of 3 days old. In my quest for understanding the true meaning of life and existence ( The reason behind existence of religion ), I chanced upon few teachers ( Would not wish to name them due to my personal belief system ). I practised what they suggested, in terms of religious ( Or Scientific as you may prefer to call it ) habits right from waking up to diet to other habits including the approach to people and most important of all Universal Tolerance. Today, when I have realised that every incident is but a small frame of the bigger picture of Life and life itself being too short, the ones who endlessly debate and ” EXPECT ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS BEFORE THEY CAN EVEN THINK OF FOLLOWING ‘BEST PRACTICES LAID DOWN BY THE VARIOUS RELIGIONS ‘” are just going round and round in circles. This infact includes so called people who have renounced wordly life of all religions.I have infact understood by experience one thing ” START FOLLOWING THE PRACTICES EVERYDAY WITHOUT FAIL AND THE ANSWERS REVEAL THEMSELVES TO YOU THROUGH NATURE ”
I would like to quote the Thirukkural and the Uddhava Gita here as the two excellent master pieces that I respect as my Teachers.
” Experience is the best Teacher.
The various religions
( Various methods of interpretation of the Supreme Power’s existence ) are guidelines.
IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY THE ESSENCE OF RELIGION IN IT’S TOTALITY, YOU NEED TO REALIZE BY EXPERIENCE, THE TEACHINGS.
Rather than debate endlessly, have a refreshing bath, read your religious text, visit your religious place of worship, earn for a living, Learn to diplomatically deal with all politics, Have Good Food, Have a good Family Life, Wish Good and do Good ( within your means )to others and
” EACH DAY, BE HAPPY, BE FREE “.
Religiously experienced means ” YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND HOW LIFE OPERATES ”
I would here recommend reading the book ” THE MONK WHO SOLD HIS FERRARI ” By Mr.Robin Sharma for the excellent path it lays for any person who wants to live a life of Purpose.
THE YOUNGER GENERATION CAN DEFINITELY SPREAD POSITIVE ENERGY BY THESE SIMPLE BUT EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT METHODS OF LIFE
Let there not be anymore conversions in India neither any more construction of any more temples, nor any religious fundamentalists making India their base for screaming their throats out against any other country and scheming terrific acts against humanity.Let us maintain the existent places of worship and give them their due importance.
ALL THE BEST
September 19th, 2006 at 7:29 am
Guru,
my prayers and bbest wishes with you to endure and come out of what u’d experienced in the recent past!
i totally agree to your view here.
i dont know what else to say!
September 22nd, 2006 at 6:26 pm
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April 1st, 2008 at 5:30 am
Ordinary human beings understanding and mind capability is very limited. I mean to say that it is very difficult for human beings with ordinary intellect and mind to know about the true and inner meaning of religion and scriptural texts be it a case with hinduism or other religions. People should understand that God takes birth on earth at regular intervals to spread the message of spiritualism. When evil intensifies he directly incarnates as Rama, Krishna etc. for establishing religion i.e dharma samsthapana and in other times he appears as a messenger viz., Adi sankara, jesus, prophet mohammad etc. to spread the spiritual message. So in case of dharma samsthapana their is direct incarnation and in other times it is through a messenger. The messages delivered by these people from time to time in strict sense is one and the same. Only human beings by virtue of their limited mind capability and ignorance misinterpret the same and ultimately pave way for differences among themselves and for the purpose of serving, mainly in true sense, selfish ends with selfish and egoistic motives.
It is for the people to believe or not the above facts which is the only truth always. Again belief is dependent upon the mind capability and state of realisation of the human beings concerned.
Next point, Regarding Adi shankara, he would have been born definitely before Jesus Christ only because, such a giant and perfect intellect he was, i feel that under his presence no other teaching or faith could have survived. So regarding his existence in the 8th century, (by which time message of islam - which in true sense is nothing but the repetition of hinduism message in a different route, has already entered india) it is doubtful whether history is correct or has been manipulated somewhere. Thus it is god’s will, he first sent adi shankara to revive the truths of hinduism, then other messengers to continue the essence of true message.
If again god willing, a messenger like adi shankara comes, he will come for reviving the true essence and message of religion and to defeat all false notions about mindsets of false people.
April 1st, 2008 at 11:31 am
Vasu
Thanks for your comments. This topic is a never ending story. There are always two camps. one which says ordinary human beings can never understand. my take has been, If religion is not for the ordinary human beings, then i dont know for whom do we have those teachings and scriptures for?Gods??
Sorry if i do not respond to further comments in this post.
I rest my case.